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1833 - Bromeliads (Garden) - 2007-06-20
(Dimension: 2030 x 1380 pixels - Counter: 2990)
Neoregelia johannis
(Uploaded as: Neoregelia cruenta)
Photographer: Eric Gouda
Note: Grown at the Utrecht Botanic Gardens.
Collector thinks it is from Ecuador, W of Loja (doubtful, probably Brazil). It is a huge plant that seems not identifiable with Smith & Downs. Seems to be close to Neoregelia pascoaliana L.B.Sm.
Identification: Solved
- Identification (1837): H. Luther (2007-06-20) =Neoregelia cruenta - This looks like a shade grown Neo cruenta.
- Identification (1837): Uncle Derek (2007-06-21) =Neoregelia pascoaliana - It could easily have been found in Ecuador having been put out with the garden rubbish as humans often do.I have comea across this in Panama, Brazil, Venezuela,Colombia just to keep me on my toes. The white petals suggest N. pascoaliana because if I read Leme correctly N.cruenta are always blue. Looks like you will have to butcher the inflorescence and see what this reveals.
- Note (1837): Eric Gouda (2007-06-21) - No it is not grown in the shade, but in the full sun eather. I have added a picture of a discected flower to show details.
It seems to have both characteristics of N.cruenta and N.pascoaliana. By the way, there is an error in the key leading to N cruenta (56) saying sepals acute, the description says acuminate, which is the case in this specimen. A pity Lyman did not mention the size of the pedicel (only distinct) and sepals. Flowers to 45 cm tall, 8 cm in this specimen (including 2.5 cm pedicel and 2 cm ovary [not 1 cm]) which is some difference, but maybe the inner flowers would be shorter to reach the water surface (I will check this later). Probably N.cruenta is more close than N.pascoaliana. - Identification (1837): Elton Leme (2007-06-21) =Neoregelia johannis - Dear Eric,
The Neoregelia looks to me a specimen of N. johannis growing in low light condition, which may be responsible for the deep green color of the leaves without any red or reddish parts mainly near the apex. The spines look to me excessively long for its pattern, but is not at all exceptional. That is my guess.
This species grows in the south coastal part of Rio de Janeiro state, where it is sympatric with N. correia-araujoi in Paraty region, reaching the north boarder limit of São Paulo State. It is substituted southwardly by Neor. marmorata, which is much smaller and has distinctly narrower leaves.
Best,
Elton - Note (1837): Eric Gouda (2007-06-21) - That is interesting! Smith's monograph has only a very short description: Plant very stout. Leaves rather few, to 5 dm long; blades gently recurving, chaneled, subtruncate and then terminating in a stout black spine, pale green or whitish, red-spotted, laxly serrulate. Inflorescence deep in the leaf-rosette, petals slightly exceeding the floral bracts and sepals, acuminate, white, spreading.
It would be nice to publish some new data about this species!!
As far as I can see, the terminal black spine is really typical for this species, but I do not see that in my specimen. - Note (1837): CEM Carvalho (2007-06-22) - As far as I know, ther is no N cruenta in Equador. Their distribution is in the costal area from Rio de Janeiro to Espirito Santo.
It is looking like a hybrid of N. cruenta. A natural hybrid of N cruenta and N eltoniana could be possible since they occur in the same habitat. However the spines seems to be to big for a N cruenta pattern. N. carcharodon have big spines and occur in municipalities of Macae and Marica (Rio de janeiro State) but in the mountains while N cruenta grow in sand dunes.
It is an interesting guessing game!!! - Note (1837): Uwe Scharf (2007-09-08) - I was watching this plant already for some years in the Bot Garden in Utrecht and it was extremely interesting to me because such a huge plant should be known to Ecuador. Finally I got a cutting of about 80 cm high in May 2007, put it in a 12 cm pot (looks funny) and hung it up in my garden in half shade, at least protected from direct sunlight during noon. During the last 3 months it showed some new growth at the inner leaves and, what a surprise, it developed a pattern on the leaves that was already faintly visible at some exposed parts of the plant in the Bot Garden in Utrecht (see photo) and what is similar to the pattern of N. marmorata. In my mind I made a guess how the plant could look like when it was grown in full sun for some years and it kicked me out of my socks (sorry for that 1:1 German-English translation) when this virtual picture in my brain was matched 100% by a picture from a saleswoman on the internet (see attached picture) who is selling their plants in Ceasa Campinas in the Market of Flowers. I got in contact with the saleswoman and she told me that the plant is frequently found in the Serra da Bocaina, Eastern Brazil. They sell it under the name Neoregelia johannis. Would this be the right name for that plant in Utrecht? If yes, then the collection site in Ecuador, W of Loja, Catamayo should be revised.
- Note (1837): Uwe Scharf (2009-02-22) - An update: The plant is flowering at the moment and it develops white flowers with acuminate apex. The blotchy pattern developed well in the sun in 2008, but unfortunately became weaker in winter, but the plant remained green, didn't become yellowish-reddish like on the photo above. My opinion is to address this plant with the name N. correia-araujoi, not N. cruenta, because of the blotchy pattern (not N. johannis), and the white flowers (not N. cruenta). When my plants are outside again, I will take some pictures.
- Identification (1837): Harry E. Luther (2009-02-22) =Neoregelia johannis - The cultivated plants seem to show characters of both N. cruenta and johannis/correia-araujoi. I collected a similar plant south of the city or Rio de J in an area where the above mentioned taxa should have co-occurred. If I had to show horn it Id say N. johannis. The lower, colorful photo is of a classic N. correia-araujoi which is very close to average N. johannis in al respects except color and markings. HEL
- Identification (1837): Uwe (2010-01-26) =Neoregelia correia-araujoi - I added two pictures from my plant after cultivation in the open, my garden in Germany. The plant developed the typical N.-correia-araujoi-markings that fade away with age or in the winter. As N. johannis should have no blotchy markings, this plant should be N. correia-araujoi. (Sent: brom-l@nic.surfnet.nl)
- Note (1837): Eric Gouda (2010-01-27) - The description of N.johannis is very poor and no specimen available and locality is unknown: Plant very stout. Leaves rather few, to 5 dm long; Blades gently re-curving, channeled, subtrunctate and then terminating in a stout black spine, pale green or whitish, red-spotted, laxly serrulate. Inflorescence deep in the leaf-rosette. Petals slightly exceeding the floral bracts and sepals, acuminate, white, spreading.
It does fit this specimen except for the black spine at the apex of the leaves and white sepals (are green). Following the description the leaves can be spotted!
On the other hand this specimen does fit the description of N.correia-araujoi fairly well, except the sepals are 30 mm (not 25) and not ending in a spine!
Pereira & Penna compares their new species with N.marmorata and do not mention N.johannis at all. The question rises, are these two species (N.j. & N.c.-a.) not the same? (Sent: brom-l@nic.surfnet.nl) - Note (5455): Nick Bethmann (2010-01-27) - The color of the ripe berries will help with identification. Johannis, correia-araujoi and cruenta have red fruits, while carcharodon, pascoaliana and marmorata have white berries. If you can pollinate the plant and report back on the berry color, that will help. I have a similar looking plant and I managed to get it to produce one ripe fruit which was white. I tried to cross with cruenta and that didn't take, but pollen from a carcharodon hybrid did take.
- Note (1837): Uwe (2011-09-27) - Picture 1837 was found on the internet and shows a "real" N. correia-araujoi. All the remaining pictures show the same plant under different cultivation conditions.
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